If you thought AI's impact on recruitment was limited to a few CVs and cover letters, think again. Gen Z candidates have access to more tools and learning resources than ever — and they’re using them to shift the balance of power in their favour. 

But are recruiters ready to meet this wave of innovation –– with a clear plan and transparent communication about what that plan looks like?

In this episode of TA Disruptors, host Robert Newry is joined by Shoshanna Davis and Holly Hobbs, to discuss how Gen Z sees the world of work, why employers are missing the mark, and how AI has become both a bridge and a barrier.

Shoshanna Davis is founder of Fairy Job Mother and is on a mission to empower young people with the skills and confidence they need for impactful careers, while giving managers the understanding and tools to engage, inspire, and elevate the next generation of leaders. She manages a community of 20,000+ young people and advises companies like M&S, BT and Diageo. 

Holly Hobbs is the Founder of Apprentivia - The Early Talent Employer Branding Agency that specialises in helping employers attract & develop Gen-Z apprentices through social media; as well as managing a community of 40,000 young people. Holly has worked with organisations like Berkeley Group, British Gas, and the Department of Education.

Holly and Shoshanna co-host the Future Talent Talks podcast –– a podcast for Early Careers teams on all things Gen A to Z.

💡What’s in this episode?

🔥 Gen Z’s social media pressure cooker
From TikToks showcasing live job interview hacks with ChatGPT to Insta reels promising instant promotions, Gen Z candidates are navigating a minefield of misleading and conflicting advice. And the reality is, when it comes to using AI in the recruitment process, it can be impossible to tell what good looks like. Shoshanna and Holly break down why this generation’s “entitlement” is really just social media’s warped lens on career progression.

⚡ ChatGPT in job applications: Cheat code or toolkit?
55% of Holly’s Gen Z community use ChatGPT to apply for jobs. From rewording clunky CVs to acing online tests, they’re turning to AI to fill the gaps where career mentoring and guidance have failed them. But are recruiters ready to engage with AI-assisted candidates —or are they turning them away unfairly?

🎯 Why traditional career paths don’t cut it anymore
Gen Z aren’t climbing the corporate ladder — they’re redefining it. Shoshanna and Holly reveal how this generation is reshaping the meaning of work-life balance and why loyalty to employers is waning.

🤔 The transparency trap: Recruiters, take note
Employers say, “be yourself,” but what does that mean to Gen Z candidates? Holly and Shoshanna highlight ambiguous advice, arguing that companies must instead clarify their stance on AI in applications. Whether it’s a blanket ban or an endorsement, indecision creates chaos.

🛠 Actionable insights for TA leaders

• Define your AI policy now: Sitting on the fence isn’t an option. Decide if candidates can use AI tools and explain how.
• Be specific about your processes: If your recruitment involves AI or automation, tell applicants how it’s used. Transparency builds trust.
• Innovate your assessments: Incorporate tasks that AI can’t easily tackle, such as real-time problem-solving or behavioural exercises.
  
  

🚀 Why this episode matters:

The talent landscape is shifting fast, and ignoring Gen Z’s approach to work—and AI—is a risk employers can’t afford. This episode is packed with unfiltered advice for talent acquisition leaders navigating AI’s disruption of early careers recruitment.

Listen now to find out how to embrace transparency, rethink assessments, and stay ahead of the curve👇

Transcript:

Robert: Welcome to the TA Disruptors podcast. I'm Robert Neury, CEO and co-founder of Arctic Shores, the task-based psychometric company that helps organisations uncover potential and see more in people.

And we're into the third series now of the TA Disruptors podcast. And we're focusing on Gen AI and its impact on recruitment and for this particular episode on early careers. And I'm very excited to have two people that I've known for a while, but have the highest respect for two fellow podcasters as well. But Holly Hobbs and Shoshana Davis.

Let me just do a little introduction about you both beforehand and then we'll get into the topic. So Shoshana, let me start with you. Founder of Fairy Job Mother. I love that title, by the way. Perhaps you can share when we come to you about how you came about that name, but it's a brilliant name. And I know you're on a mission to empower young people with the skills and confidence they need for impactful careers, managing a community of over 20,000 young people. And what's impressive when you have such a big community like that is the insights that you're able to give people on how to engage, inspire and elevate the next generation of talent. You've advised companies like Marks and Spencer's, BT, Diageo, Lidl and as I referred to earlier, and it turns out actually in the same podcast studio too, you are the co-host of the Future Talent Talks, on all things Gen AI to Z.

But I noticed that you've got down the American temptation on this as A to Z on all of this. But I will be strictly English as it were on this and stick to Z. I'm sure we'll have some discussions about Zs and Ss in language later on when it comes to Gen AI. But you do that podcast with Holly.

And so let me turn to Holly now. Holly is the founder of Apprentivia. The early talent employer branding agency, and I like the way that you described yourself as an employer branding strategist that helps employers attract, and develop young people through social media. I've watched many of your TikTok reels, not least the British Gas one that you did, which I loved. And also got a lot of, and it just shows you the power if you get that social media piece right of how many people you can get to engage without having to spend a vast fortune on paid for advertising, which many employers assume they have to do. 

And perhaps we'll talk a little bit later on about how employers can approach these sort of things in educating and engaging with the next generation of talent. You also manage a very large community, and I don't know whether there's a competition between the two of you on the size of the community, but I'll just say it's a very large community too. And you've also worked with many large organizations like the Barclay Group, British Gas I referred to earlier, and the Department of Education, which is also sort of interesting in terms of policy. 

Shoshanna: You were the star of their campaign, weren't you?

Holly:  Yes. I was in their campaign, yeah, this year, February. Yes. In their Skills for Life campaigns on social media. 

Robert: Well, I think it's one of those really interesting things where you have lots of people that think that they, and this is why I'm so excited to have you on this podcast, you get lots of people that think that they understand the next generation and they've read lots of research reports, whether that's by big organizations like Gartner or somebody, but they don't really necessarily understand. There's one thing to read, it's another thing to really understand about what's different about this next generation and how they see the world.

And that's such an important thing because when, if you don't understand how they see the world then the things that you're doing to try and attract and engage with them are just not gonna connect. So let's start with that point really before we get into the other things around gen AI. What makes, and I'll just throw this initial conversation, a question to you Holly, but by all means, Shoshana later on if you want to add something to it. But what makes this generation different in how they are seeing employers and how they are seeing the world of work and the skills that they might need to build up before applying or maybe when they get into work and your perspective on that. 

Holly: Yeah, I think Gen Z are seeing the world of work completely differently to other generations because they're seeing it as a more holistic thing. They're seeing it as a view of their whole life rather than just at work and we're gonna be at this company for a certain amount of years. They're seeing that they actually have other things that they want to do in life and they want a bit more of a balance. It's not all about, don't get me wrong, some people are really motivated at work and people want to do well, but it's their whole life isn't evolving around moving up the ladder or doing this certain thing in their career. They're realizing that actually there is other things to life. And as I said, they want a bit more of a balance. And so that is manifesting in different ways. And the press obviously come out with loads of different statements about Gen Z and how they're lazy and things like that. But actually that's not the case. They just have different ways of prioritizing work and showing up at work than other generations? 

Robert: I know, and I think there's such a fascinating change that's happened and it's, you know, for my generation, you know, when I applied for graduate jobs. It was a totally different view. It was you're applying to a company, it's going to be your life and you're largely going to work for the same organisation or say small number of organisations for your working life. And I wonder what has changed around that. It's not that for my generation, I didn't care holistically about work-life balance, but it was never an option, partly, but partly also wonder whether there is, there's a mindset change which is that I'm not coming into the world of work thinking that this is my be all and end all, and I am willing now to stand up for that holistic approach. 

Shoshanna: I think there's definitely a change in mindset, partly due to, I feel like a lot of young people have seen friends and family members who have been loyal to the same company for 20 years, and then they'll just get laid off or fired in a second, or maybe due to the state of the economy, there are people that have been working for 20 to 30 years in corporate like sometimes I don't really have that much to show for it, especially in today's climate and economy where like some of the basic things that are like promised to you by society, like if you get good grades, then you're guaranteed a job or when you get in that job, you can buy a house and you can travel and do loads of those things. 

Because realistically, loads of those things aren't achievable for many young people at the moment. I do feel like a lot of them are just realising, mm you know, it's probably not, it's not actually worth it. Does it make sense to dedicate our whole lives to one company when they can get rid of us like that? And realistically, they don't actually care about us as much as we care about them anyway, because they don't really pay us that much money in general either. 

So I think there's definitely a little bit of a mind shift and they've learned, mind shift, and they've learned from past generations as well. 

Robert: Yes, very, very interesting. And it's such an important thing to understand too, because one of the things when I talk to people that I know in the early careers space, particularly hiring managers too, they talk about that this next generation have this sense of entitlement and that must be a word that makes you wince a bit all the time and actually when you think about what you've both just said, it's not a sense of entitlement, it's a sense of this - is how I'd like to leave lead my life, but you can see how it might come across to people who are a bit blinkered about it as a sense of entitlement. 

Shosanna: Yeah, I mean Holly and I both talk about this a lot and we both agree with it, but I think essentially there's two pieces. I think first off, number one, given what I've just said about the state of the economy and they've been promised these things by society and they are so unachievable, they're probably less likely to stay in an environment where they're not being challenged. They don't feel like they have career progression or they aren't earning money because they have no choice pandemic where many of them, I think us included, do feel like we've lost two, three years of our lives. And we're very much still trying to play catch up. 

So when you've lost two to three years of your life, you don't feel like you're getting everything for your company. And then you bring in social media where you're constantly seeing realistically unrealistic expectations of what it actually looks like to work. I can't think of another time on earth where you've been able to open your phone and see what every single other person, your age is doing, what job they're doing, how much they're earning, what a day in their life looks like. If you combine all of those things, they aren't, it just creates a huge, huge like feeling of like behind, basically feeling behind, but also huge motivation to progress. 

And I think a lot of the time that motivation to progress gets misconstrued as entitlement because you'll have graduates or apprentices come in and no one at school or uni teaches you what realistic path to progression actually look like. So where they get their information is social media. Their concept of those things are based on social media. 

So they'll come in and they'll do a good job for three months or six months and they'll ask for a promotion or they wanna be promoted to the next level. And to them, that's just completely normal because they don't understand these things. They've seen someone else who works at a startup of five people get promoted from graduate to CMO. That's because they work in a company, five people. They don't work for Fortune 500 companies. So without rambling too long about the topic, yeah, it grinds my gears for sure. 

Holly: Yeah, that social media point is so important and that is as well as the whole point around the pandemic and seeing your parents or carers, whatever, grow up and not get to where they maybe wanted to go to. Social media is also a massive part of how people view the world and the world of work. And so it's the expectation on social media, it looks like becoming a millionaire and owning this massive business is really easy. And so as a result, people think, well, if that person's gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. They think it's easier than it actually is to get there. So their expectations are slightly different because of that as well. 

Robert: Yes. So valuable to hear that and understand it because I think that's part of the disconnect that we're seeing in the workplace around this. And let's just, on that point of social media and what it's advising you and what you're seeing on that. I'd like to sort of, as many people will be in the thick of their early careers campaigns now and this whole topic of the use of GenAI, particularly chat GPT, and you go into TikTok, you go into Instagram, and there are videos there of, oh, this is how you can use chat GPT to help get this ace job that you're really after and would change your life. 

And I know you ran a fantastic podcast episode on this, but could you perhaps share with us what you have learned from your communities about how are this next generation thinking about chat GPT as a tool and what is social media advising them about how to use it? 

Holly: Yeah, sure. So we polled our communities online and we essentially asked them, do they use AI when applying for jobs? From my community, 55% said they did. 

Shosanna: And mine was close enough, so mine was on 45%. 

Holly: And the main reasons were… And these are, I think, weren't these our mixed reasons? Yeah. So the main reasons for me were things like, if most companies use AI to screen applications, then why can't I use it to apply? For some of them, it gives them an idea of what to say, what to do, how to show up in a professional manner. Someone says efficiency. Someone said researching every company you apply to can be really lengthy because obviously with things like apprenticeships you can you have to apply for quite a lot.

And also someone said it helps them pass the online test and that some questions are worded horribly. So it helps them with the process of what that means. That was mine. 

Shoshanna: I think it was mainly very similar answers. Another one was I never had the careers mentoring to help me understand how to write a CV or cover letter. So that young person has obviously felt like chat GBT and generative AI is helping them to do that. Someone said, if you aren't using AI to apply for jobs, you're missing out, which I feel like that messaging for TikTok. That's right, yeah, that is like a TikTok video. So you've said that off of TikTok. That is the very, that is literally like the messaging that has been portrayed. But it's so funny, yeah. And it's being positioned as like this super easy, quick fix, like you don't really have to do anything for it and just like type in a question you're being asked or use it live during an interview and root. And it's just like. I've seen those videos. The critical thinking aspect, well that's just the whole theme of social media, the critical thinking aspect, just yeah, it doesn't really exist a lot, I don't know.

Robert: But so fascinating you're right about those videos aren't they that they just say and back to your point that this is super easy and this sense of well, if you're not using this tool, then you're missing out and you're putting yourself as a disadvantage. 

Holly: There's been one, well, there's been a couple of videos I've seen on TikTok where someone's either in a live interview or pretending to be in a live interview. I'm not sure. But basically they've got the box, they've got the screen of them in the interview and then they pulled up another window next to it and once the question's been asked and they're typing it in or they're voicing it in to chat GPT, whatever AI they're using to get an answer. And then they're like, right, quickly reading that and then reciting it. 

So like, yeah, really, really good question. So, and then they're reading it and then they're saying, yeah, it's crazy. 

Robert: And it is, and it's so easy. The text or speech to text, the speed with which you can get a response back from chat GPT is insane. And I… I'd like to just get your bit of your perspective on this because I think it's important for companies to understand that this is what they see on social media and it is this sense of this is really easy and there's no sense of it in any way being cheating either, that it feels like this is a calculator.

and it's super easy to use. And let me demonstrate to you how easy it is to use. So why would you not use it? 

Shosanna: Yeah, I think that narrative is also very much being pushed. But then I don't know about you, Holly, I'm also seeing a different narrative where it's like, there are some, because obviously like anyone can make a TikTok, so there's like recruiters and things at different companies, there'll be like, there's another narrative which is being pushed, which is very much the opposite in terms of you shouldn't use it. 

So it's now almost like with everything on social media, I do think it's also creating confusion because you're seeing one side telling you, you're missing out if you're not using it, it's really easy to use, and you're seeing another side saying, don't use it. So now, I think some of the responses we actually got, or one or two I got was that. when we ask people why they don't use it, because that was a question as well. It was like, I don't think I'm allowed or it's cheating. So it's very much like I'm actually now seeing mixed messages, which I think is even more confusing. Because when you'll see it, it's like advice about CVs. You can see a million different pieces of advice, like how on earth people know which ones to go with. 

Holly: I think ultimately as well, AI is such a trending topic right now, if someone does a video on it, they're gonna get views. And so, yeah, a lot of it is about just driving views, clout as they call it around just speaking about AI. Is the advice or is these things that people are actually saying helpful? are they really actionable? Is it the right thing to say? I'm not sure, but at the end of the day, it's just getting them the views and clicks that they want. I know. 

Shosanna: And these new tools are coming out of nowhere. Like I've had a few DMs in the past few months from these random softwares that are related to job search and AI and they're messaging me like, do you wanna collaborate on something? And I'm just not even replying to them because obviously I'm not gonna promote something that I've never used, but also, if I don't have the time to test it out, so I'm just ignoring them. But I've got quite a few of those through as well. So some people are just in it for the money as well companies offer them a decent amount of money to like post a TikTok or a reel then some people just chase them away. 

Robert: Yeah, no, and I get that. And that's one of, I suppose, the really interesting elements of what you've highlighted here is the mixed messaging people are getting. So you don't know whether you've got on the one hand, these wonderful reels that say it's super easy and they've got jobs from it. And then on the other, you've got these employers coming along saying, you can't use it. And I just like to double down a bit on that, do you use it, don't you use it advice. I was on a webinar with a hundred students from UCL just talking about could and should they use GenAI tools as part of a job application. What was really interesting in the messages that were coming up as I was talking were quite a few people who were just saying well, I've been told not to use it. So that means the employers must have all these tools to detect it. And, and how good are these tools? And, and they must have great technology. And so you had, you had a lot of people who were the sort of conscientious and the anxious going, I better not touch it. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you have the extroverts and the chances that are going, I know they can't detect it. 

Holly: Isn't there like a matrix of different types of people that these people can get to? 

Robert: There is, no, there is Holly. And so this is the challenge, which is you're going into social media here, you've got some people saying it's really easy and they can't detect it and there's no way of finding out. Employers coming in saying, if you use it, we're going to remove you from the process. And therefore, school leavers and graduates are going, well, what do I do here? Can they really detect? And this is, one of the questions I got from this, which is why it's so important to understand this, was if I have taken, because a lot of job applications require you to write something about why you'd like to work for them. 

And... I'm not very concise in the way that I write, or maybe my use of language is not very professional, and I put it into ChatGPT to make it more concise and a bit more professional, and then I copy it out of ChatGPT into the job application. Is that illegal? Or is that just me using something to help like Grammarly or spell check in there? And I think that's such an important piece to understand that actually people aren't getting great advice. And have you seen anybody give so far any good advice as to… what they should be doing around using chat GPT? 

Shosanna: I've seen a few around on TikToks around like specific prompts to use. So obviously my, I mean, we've said it in our podcast, but obviously there'll be people listening that haven't heard it. I'm very much in the mindset of it should be like something that compliments what you're doing or it should support what you're doing. It shouldn't be a replacement. 

So I've seen a few videos around good prompts to use when preparing for a job interview or having to answer like those written questions, giving it some specific prompts your own answer first and then yeah using chat gbt to make it more concise like when I do LinkedIn posts I write my post and I'm like can you make this more concise I want each line to have no more than like eight words or whatever and then it will rewrite it back to me because then it's not it hasn't created something for me, it's helped me improve something I've already written and it's been an age rather than so I've seen a few videos kind of around ways to do that but in general more bad advice than good.

Robert: Yeah, and I just, I wonder, I think that's brilliant advice. And one of the challenges, I think, for anybody applying for jobs is what does good look like in terms of use of GenAI tools and what does bad look like? And whether you have come across anybody yet that has come to you to say, okay, how do I communicate that to the next generation? So do you think that… I suppose the question I'm kind of posing to you is that something again, that should be done through creating a TikTok or an Instagram, much more a video rather than just putting words out there? 

Shosanna: I think it's a good question. I was at a kind of legal early, like careers professionals event a few months ago, and it was a topic that came up for discussion. I added my thoughts and it was mainly around kind of making a statement, making a decision either way, because from what I'm seeing, the employers that are struggling the most and getting a lot higher volume chat GPT written applications are actually the ones that haven't made a decision and haven't said anything because candidates don't know either way. 

So my main piece of advice was telling them to kind of make a decision and then think about that decision, right? Because if you blanket ban it altogether, what does that say about your organization? If you're saying that you're an innovative, fast forward, future facing whatever organization, and then you are completely banning the use of a tool without even looking, and realistically, for many industries, especially the legal industry, they were all saying that they use AI in their jobs right now. As soon as you start, yes. As soon as you start. So surely if you're like a forward facing company, you want people to use it, right? So I said, think about your decision. Because if you blanket ban it, and if you say yes, you need to provide guidance. So I'm rambling here. Yeah, that was a question that came up. 

Robert: Yeah, but I think your point is absolutely right, which is you can't sit in on the fence on this. And there are many, I went earlier this year I went and looked on a lot of career sites to see what advice do you, are you giving to school leavers or graduates on the use of gen AI in your application process? And I could find one, Shoosmiths.

Shosanna: Yes, that's the only one I know about as well. I still haven't seen any good ones. Exactly. I don't know about you, I still haven't seen anything apart from the Shoosmiths one. 

Robert: Well, and we've given some guidance on that. So a few are now starting to get off the fence on that one. So Monzo, HMRC, believe it or not, and now, yes, have just updated their guidance on it, but still a lot haven't given any guidance. 

Shosanna: Or they'll say you can use it, but it's like very, very vague. So there was a law firm that was at the event I was just talking about and they made an update and I saw it on LinkedIn and they were like, yeah, your feedback was really, really helpful. And I said, yeah, this is great. You've made it. And their statement was, yes, you can use it. But I said, what would be even better is can you provide some specific examples of when it has been used in an application and what successful use actually looks like? Again, I just think, yeah, saying you can use it is great, but then it is like, okay, how can I actually use it well? So yeah.

Robert: And just on that, one of the… best or certainly one of the questions that from this UCL conference or webinar that I did came out was one had applied for a law firm for a summer internship, which obviously is, you know, a lot of school leavers are doing or university too in order just to get a taste of what it's like. And in the application form it said, have you used AI in preparing or answering the application questions. And so the question that was then given to me on this is, what am I supposed to answer on this? Is this? A good or a bad thing. Is this a good or a bad thing? 

And even if they put it on the website, exactly, is it a honey trap? And it wasn't, and the applicants, well, the student that gave the question, it just wasn't clear from the website as to whether this they clearly used AI because you could see that they were talking about it on their website as part of the future, but it wasn't clear whether that was a good thing or a bad thing to have as a skill.

Shosanna: I feel like that's a common thing, kind of off topic, but I also around, like, you know, when you submit job applications, there's the kind of diversity questions like, were you on free school meals, what background? And like, again, for a lot of people, that's hardly ever made clear. So it's like, I'm giving this information, is this gonna put me at an advantage or a disadvantage? I feel that's a common theme on applications in general. 

Holly: A lot of young people don't realise what we realise in terms of employers are actually really wanting to help that new talent and those people. But from the young person's perspective, like Shoshana's saying, they're not thinking that they're thinking, oh, is this gonna hinder my application? And so it's gonna be the same for AI. 

Robert: And I think that's so important to make everybody aware of that too, that you've got to look through the eyes of the applicant on all of this and I think you're right, many employers are well meaning on this but without being explicit around that, then people don't know. 

Holly: Yeah, many employers I've worked with in the apprenticeship space they're very pro, like we want to hire this pool of talent. And I actually made a video this week and posted a video to my community saying, look, they want to hire you. Like they, this is what they're telling me. Like just here are the tips of the applications, but just know that you don't need X, Y, Z to get in. Like I was saying, you don't need loads of work experience, et cetera. These employers want you to just be you and they just don't realize this. So it's like we have a duty to tell them this. 

Shosanna: And I feel like they need to be clear as well, cause I, no offense to anyone listening, but I see so many videos of employers being like interviewed at events. Oh, what'd you do for an application? Just be yourself. Everyone says that. What the hell does being yourself in a job application mean? Please define it to me, because 90% of the time if you are actually your true self at work like things happen and people make judgments so what on earth does like that generic piece of advice even mean? I've seen so many videos of graduate and apprentice employees being interviewed into a young person. They just have no clue what be yourself means. 

Robert: Yes. And I love the fact that you've called that out because I've been guilty of saying that in the past, of be yourself. Not what you're trying to say around that is don't manipulate, don't change who you are. Don't try and double guess. But actually that's not what's being understood when you make that statement. And it comes back to why it's so important for employers to talk to the likes of both of you is to, well, what's going through the next generation's mind when you use phrases like that? Because it's probably different from what you intended and thought. 

Holly: Yeah. So you've got to go into so much more detail than you think. What you think those people know, they don't know. What you've got in your head, they have no idea. And it's even things like drink water, be yourself. I used to get those tips all the time when I was applying for apprenticeships. I was like, well, that's not helpful.

Robert: Yes, because it’s the specificity as it were on that of well what are you trying to say around this why and everybody when you're applying for a job too is that you know you want to get the job and so you think well what do you want to know about me and it's be yourself doesn't so broad it doesn't help you narrow down of well what are the things that I'm meant to be trying to to bring to play here and on that piece around how you bring out what you're good at. 

I want to talk about this bit that you seem to be divided on in your podcast around is does gen AI level the playing field because a lot of and you very kindly quoted some some Arctic Shores research on that that I think we found you know 40 plus percent people were saying that that GenAI they used GenAI tools to help level the playing field if you're neurodiverse particularly if you're a dyslexic or dyspraxia - it can help you write better. If you've not, and we talked about this a bit early, if you've not had good mentoring and you're not quite sure how to express yourself in a way that's appropriate for a company, ChatGPT can make you sound really, really good. 

Shosanna: So why have you ended up on the fence on this one? I think from my perspective, I can understand how it's really helpful for things like you just said, like if someone hasn't had the career advice or guidance, but then also equally, then and again, Robert, you are much more of an expert on this than me.

So there's probably data I've not been massively keeping up with it. But then like anything, when there's a free and a paid version, like OpenAI aren't gonna sell a paid version if it's not better than the free version. So then it brings in, okay, well, the young people and the students that can afford the paid version, they are then gonna have, and again, I understand when people say, well, some aid is better than none. Like I do understand that. Something is better than nothing. But then again, that's creating a further divide.

And again, I did actually have the figures for our podcast, but I can't remember what they were. But in general, like the UK does actually have quite high digital exclusion rates. So there is still a whole population of young people who do not even have internet access at home. So those people, they're not gonna be able to use chatgptif they don't have a device to use it. Yes, they can go to the library, but you need internet bandwidth for that. So again, I think it can help level the playing field, but then there are still a part of the population in this country who they're not gonna be able access it basically.

Robert: Yeah, and I suppose you do have to clearly understand that and that that that is digital access is one thing and it's another as to whether a tool that is freely available that can help bridge some of the gap, I suppose, between those who've not had access to things like mentoring or depends on the quality of education that they've had. And so anything that helps bridge that gap largely should be a good thing. And I don't think you're saying it's not a good thing, but it's, I suppose you're saying you're on the fence because actually you've got to understand that there's more nuance to this, that it is largely a good thing, but actually there's a paid version that creates disadvantage. So what are you going to do about that?

Shosanna: Exactly, because if you get much better answer in the pay version, then surely that's not 110% fair. Holly, I feel like you should have your respect for it, but one more thing, sorry. I know this isn't really about living in the playing field, but I also think in general, there's not much education around kind of AI and its impacts. And I think there's an environmental impact, which I do actually think lots of young people would care about, because realistically… the more this technology is being used, it's generating data. Where is that data being stored? It's being stored in data centers, which use lots of electricity. So I also feel like there's a sustainability piece which no one actually thinks about. Most young people probably have no clue about. 

And again, not every person that's of GenZ cares about the environment, but lots do. Would they feel differently if they knew about the environmental impacts? There's lots of technology and cloud providers making out like, their solutions are very sustainable, but I'm from a tech background. I don't know. I'm just not convinced. But that's just another topic. It is. 

Robert: Well, we'll come back to the sustainability piece. But Holly, do you, what's your take?

Holly: So basically everything that Trishana said, but then I'll add a few other bits on. So one is obviously what we speak about earlier, how do they actually use it? Do they even have access or advice or mentorship, whatever it is on how to actually use it to benefit them, I don't know. And also I think that it's all well and good for some different application processes, but when you get into the actual interview stage, when you can't really use it, when you're actually just talking, how useful is it then? 

Not really, it might be able to help you prepare, but actually when they're in the moment, they can't really be quickly searching and reciting everything. It's like, we need to teach them the actual skills they need and does it, it help, I think it does help. But don't rely on it. Yeah, but it can't be relied on, yeah.

Shosanna: Yeah, I agree. And also help them understand how it actually works and where like ChatGPT or GenAI where that is actually taking that information from. Because again, I haven't been following it too closely and I'm sure this has changed as new versions are out. But originally, like last year, the version of chat.gbt that was available, it only had data for up until a certain point. That's changed. Yeah, no, I know that's now changed. But then there were lots of young people that were using it. And they were getting outdated information. 

There was one employer that I was speaking to, it was like, what's your favourite fitness brand or something, or what's your favourite campaign that we've done. Of course everyone was using ChatGBT, and the answer it was giving them was a campaign from like a year and a half ago. I'm like no one knew, most people didn't know that because again, it was just being portrayed as this thing online that you use and it's really easy. I know it now has been updated, but there still is some kind of caveats in terms of the information and the data it can give you. I'm sure there is, I'm not an expert, but I'm sure there are some caveats. So yeah, I think that's important as well. Where is it getting that data from? I don't know. 

Robert: And I think that's not the fault of the students and the people at school on this. That's something for employers to really get their mind around. And just back to that example, such a good example that you gave, because I've seen so many cases of where an employer will say, yeah.

I can tell they've used ChatGPT because they used a campaign that was 18 months old. So I'm going to reject them. And you go, okay, so, but why are you rejecting them? Oh, well, they obviously haven't done their research properly enough. And, and again, it comes back to understanding, well, maybe, you know, as we talked about earlier on this, that they're trying to do lots of applications and ChatGPT is really helpful in this. So you're, you're rejecting them based on your perception of how they're using the tool rather than what their intention was. And part of having this debate and why it's such an important debate is this gap between understanding and intention. And that's why I love what both of you do because you, and I've not seen it from anybody else, and you deliver that message so passionately as well of you've got to understand what people are thinking and what the context that they are coming into the job application process with, as opposed to your perception. 

Holly: That's such a good point. A lot of the time, we judge people based on our experience and what we do in the situation, but that's nothing to do with them. 

Robert: That's right. So I would, as we sort of wrap up things now, what do you, each of you have a sort of bit of advice on to employers when they're in the thick of doing early careers now, and they're probably experiencing a lot of pain of a gen AI, but they'll come next year and think, well, we really need to do this better how would you suggest that they might go about that? 

Holly: Yeah, I think based on what we touched upon earlier, I think you've just really need to be clear, like we've said this so many times now, but just be clear, don't sit on the fence with it. And I think do something different around it. I was actually speaking to a law firm a few weeks ago and they have this AI tool that they use internally and they've actually now let people use it externally as well instead of using chat GPT. So that's a bit different and it's...it's helping people, but it's also standing out from the crowd, it's doing other things, their employer brand as well, but ultimately helping candidates access things better and understand can they use it or can they not. That's like the main message that we've been saying. It's like just be transparent. 

And also, as we've touched on, be transparent, but also tell them best practices for it as well. And create like some sort of guide or masterclass about, look, here's our application, here's our application process, recruitment process, here's how you could use these tools to help you throughout it. 

Robert: Brilliant, thank you. And I think the last bit I'd add on there in your point is about here's how you can use it and don't use the phrase be yourself!

Shosanna: I think from my side, definitely following on for Holly's transparency piece and I think, I don't know, I don't think it's controversial me saying this but I've said it a few times publicly and no one ever seems to have anything to say about it. But it's just also, I feel like on that transparency piece, are you using any AI and automation in your process to sift out candidates? It may not be specifically AI, but there's sometimes an automation process, or I know lots of the video interview platforms, they, there is an AI element that can be used. And I know employees don't use that as a yes, no thing, but it can be used as a guide. 

So I think...You know what, if you expect transparency from applicants, you need to equally be transparent to them. And if there is any automation or AI involved, let them know because again, there is a narrative on social media that employers can detect AI, but also employers use AI. So if they're using it, why can't we? So be transparent about that piece. And then also when looking at your assessment process, have a think about how can you, things you can add that people maybe can't specifically rely on chat GBT. So I don't know, questions that force you draw on personal experiences or give specific examples or some of the Arctic shore stuff that you do like people can't use chat GBT for that because they're physically practicing an activity or doing an activity so looking at ways you can integrate things that obviously people can't use chat GBT for as well. 

Robert: It's great advice and you know I think that that point about thinking about your process and how it works but I particularly like your point of some people just think about transparency and they go, yes, we use AI in our process without specifically saying how. And the point that comes back from what we talked about earlier on this is if you are not clear about how you're using AI to detect and if you are using it to detect and what that means and where you detect don't detect on this, if that is your chosen approach.  

Then again, you're just adding confusion to candidates on this. Like, you know, if I copy and pasted from something from ChatGP, does that count as using it or not? And that's where that transparency has to be thought through. It's not just a case of, yes, we use AI to go and detect AI and if you're found using it will exclude you and it's almost like it leaves it at that as opposed to, well people are anxious about this so how are you gonna help them understand? Be specific. Be specific around it. 

Shosanna: And then all of them just, this is a wider discussion, this isn't about candidates but then again, like you said Holly, because AI is such a trending topic at the moment, there are all these new companies popping up that are trying to sell these employers tools that use AI and like respectfully, like someone that works in talent acquisition or early careers probably doesn't actually have the greatest AI knowledge and if someone's telling them you can use this AI Tool to do this that's dangerous. That is very dangerous So also don't make statements about things You don't know if you don't understand generative AI chatGPT how it works how tick tock's positioning it get yourself on tick tock Get yourself on chat GPT. You know how it works. Yes, you cannot give guidance Just do it because it's like otherwise you're just talking from nowhere.. So get on there and understand those things before giving any type of advice I'd say as well.

Robert: Brilliant. Another and I will absolutely plug the both of you on this. Another great reason why if people are thinking about what they should be doing for their next early careers programme, they should absolutely be talking to the both of you as a minimum. They should be listening to your podcasts because you cover a lot of these topics in a really engaging and enjoyable way, but also a very thoughtful way too. 

And there is, as we've heard throughout this podcast, so many good perspectives that you can give that will help improve the way that employers can, and we start at the beginning of this, engage, inspire and direct the next generation. So thank you both Shoshana, Holly for coming on us. It's been really enjoyable.